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Balancing Relational and Operational While Designing the Chief of Staff Role
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Balancing Relational and Operational While Designing the Chief of Staff Role

It’s no secret that the Chief of Staff role is becoming increasingly prevalent across growth stage companies. What was once viewed as a position reserved only for politics or Fortune 500 companies has become a secret weapon for high growth companies experiencing constant change. And it makes total sense why this role would be so valuable for these high growth companies.  

As a growth stage or venture-backed company you are onboarding new employees in waves, constantly evaluating new opportunities for growth, and building processes where none existed. So having someone able to flex between every area of the business, spearheading these initiatives or pulling in the right resources is proving to be an essential part of growth. 

Further, the Chief of Staff often serves as the connective tissue between leadership and employees at the company. They help bring together the long term vision for the company with the day-to-day execution. So as more and more companies introduce the Chief of Staff role, building the role to carry this impact throughout the company is crucial. 

We had the opportunity to meet with Ben Battaglia who recently stepped into the role of Chief of Staff at Lessonly to hear how he and the company thought about designing the role. 

On this episode of Aspiring Ops, Ben takes us through his decision to transition from Marketing to Strategy and Ops, and how he saw the construction of the Chief of Staff role as a balance of the relational and operational. Ben also shares how his experience in a management role lends itself to the position, and why he reminds himself that ‘slow is smooth, smooth is fast’ when it comes to his first 30 days in the role. 

Our Takeaway

For any Chief of Staff stepping into the role, it’s important to lay a foundation in the role that will  set you up for success in the long run. Similar to advice shared by two other new Chiefs of Staff, Steph Shaw (Agio) and Zeke Fraint (Clearcover), Ben’s initial focus wasn’t on jumping in and trying to solve every challenge or project thrown his way. 

Instead, Ben spent his time and efforts on what he referred to as a ‘listening tour,’ meeting with 30-40 team members and leaders from every department across Lessonly. 

From meeting with team members that had been at Lessonly for years to brand new team members, Ben wanted to get as many different perspectives as possible to start connecting the dots throughout the organization. Further, this ‘listening tour’ allowed Ben to start building the foundation of trust he needs in order to be successful in the Chief of Staff role. 

For any strategy and ops leader it’s so important to be able to understand what’s going on throughout the business, and establish a unique perspective relationally that other leadership members might not have into the day-to-day operations. 

Whether you are the first Chief of Staff at a company or stepping into a role previously filled by another team member, the importance of going slow now to go fast later is a piece of advice that shouldn’t be overlooked. 

Interested in learning more about Lessonly? Check out their site here

Want to learn more about how Elate is working with other strategy and ops leaders? Request a sneak peek today.

Ben Battaglia - Aspiring Ops Transcript

Brooks Busch: [00:00:53] Hello, and welcome to another episode of aspiring ops. My name is Brooks Bush, and I'm joined here today by Ben [00:01:00] Bataglia, chief of staff at Lessonly newly minted, chief of staff. Ben, thanks for so

Ben Battaglia: [00:01:05] Glad to be here. Thanks for the intro Brooks. Glad we could share. Yeah,

Brooks Busch: [00:01:08] Absolutely. Absolutely. So Lessonly yeah.

Is it simple training software that helps teams learn practice and do better work? We're super familiar with Lessonly because. They're right down the street here at Indianapolis, but Ben, you've got quite the unique journey to, Lessonly not just the first time around, but this is actually your second stint with Lessonly.

We'd love to maybe kick things off with just your journey, your background. Sure.

Ben Battaglia: [00:01:31] I'd love to. Yeah. So as you mentioned, Lessonly makes. Enablement and coaching software primarily for sales and support teams. And I've had the privilege of being on this journey for, uh, about four years now with a little break in the middle.

So previous to Lessonly, I started in the world of nonprofit, right out of school. I joined one of the largest mentoring nonprofits in the world and worked for them and did some marketing stuff for them. So kind of. Sign that got this flavor for marketing. And then when I had my second kid realized [00:02:00] non-profit life for the long run might not be for me.

And so kind of did two things. Went back to school, got an MBA at the university of Michigan and joined the Lessonly cotton who have applied out of the blue, had a friend who referred me and Kyle Lacey. Now the CMO at Lessonly. We joined right about the same time. And he took a chance on me as one of his first hires.

So got brought in to lead content marketing for them, and then ended up being the director of inbound, leading marketing and sales development. And so got to do that for about three and a half years. It was a phenomenal ride. When I joined the company, there were about 40 or 50 people and got to ride that to about one 50 and then, uh, took a.

A separate startup journey for about seven months away from Lessonly and then got to return to this exciting role of chief of staff. And so it's a really a dream job. I was telling you a couple of weeks ago, and we chatted about this episode. I had pitched this chief of staff role years ago. And so finally now was the time to do it.

And so it was [00:03:00] excited to come back to Lessonly and make it happen. So

Brooks Busch: [00:03:03] that, that was a really interesting. Tidbit, which is you had pitched the role originally to the co-founders at Lessonly wasn't the right time or the right, right situation back when you originally pitched it, however they then approached you.

It sounds like a potentially joy rejoining the company in this role. So. Really curious how that came about, how you went about even evaluating was this the right fit. Because as you mentioned, super strong, heavy background in marketing, and it sounded like that was the direction you thought originally you were going to continue on your career path.

Ben Battaglia: [00:03:35] Yeah, exactly. I really was on this track of being a VP of marketing CMO. You know, that's what I did when I left Lessonly and took a VP of marketing job. And you know, this idea of chief of staff, I've been hearing it percolate more and more in the tech world, obviously, uh, I'm a good west wing fan. So I know of a chief of staff showing up in the political world, but this idea of really helping, maximize and [00:04:00] being a force multiplier for the executive team.

Really was captivating to me and got really lucky to work closely with max and Connor, who are our CEO and president at Lessonly during my first few years there worked with max on his book, do better work and got to work on a podcast with Connor. And so. Just, there was a lot of natural chemistry there that I think when the time came around to look for a chief of staff, we had those existing relationships to make it make sense to dive back in together.

Brooks Busch: [00:04:28] Sure. From your perspective, when the role presented itself, what were the things you were thinking about within your own career of making that transition? Because obviously the people element is so important, but there's also. Just the career development aspect of it. So what were those areas that you were evaluating you were thinking through for yourself?

Ben Battaglia: [00:04:48] Yeah, I think about it as deep and wide basically. And I could continue going deep in this area of marketing that I'd spent a bunch of years in already, or I could [00:05:00] expand and go wide to learn more about other aspects of the business. And one thing I learned in my time away from Lessonly working at a smaller startup was.

I loved learning about all the different functions and the business that when I was as a marketer or Lessonly, I really didn't spend as much time diving into, I didn't spend as much time with product and engineering, as I wish I had it. Didn't spend as much time with CX as I wish I had. And so this idea of chief of staff, when I evaluated it versus do I want to go be a VP of marketing again, or a CMO?

I loved the idea of getting a wide breadth of experience. And the way I think about that is in my future, I would love to be a CEO or a COO in getting exposure to every aspect of the business and learning more that I can kind of going wider across the business was really compelling and an interesting opportunity for me.

And that's what made me want to do it.

Brooks Busch: [00:05:50] Yeah. We get this a lot with folks that fall into the chief of staff role of. The desire, even the skill set of being able to flex across a lot of different areas in different [00:06:00] departments within the business. And it's, it's almost a superpower of being able to be a generalist within so many different subsets, be able to take on a portfolio of different projects, but it also comes with to your point, sharpening those skill sets in other areas that you don't get exposed to when you're only concentrated in marketing or sales or, or any given area of the business.

So totally resonate with that. Even from the perspective of Lessonly though, we, you, you brought up the fact that you pitched it to them a few years ago, again, not the right time, but one of the things that we always get asked it seems like is when is the right stage for a company to bring on a chief of staff?

And I don't think there's a. A magic bullet or an answer that's going to fit every company, but for Lessonly itself, what made it the right time or the right fit for this to be the position that you stepped into?

Ben Battaglia: [00:06:54] Yeah. To your point. I don't think there's a right answer. It totally depends on who do you have [00:07:00] in the business at any given time and what are the strengths of the leadership team and what do you need?

For us now, we like many companies hired slowly or slower than we had intended during 2020. And now like so many other people are really ramping that back up to kind of catch up with our growth. And so, you know, I left Lessonly about seven months ago with about 150 people and we expect by the end of the year to be over 300.

And so it's really this skyrocketing. Growth from a human capital perspective that makes us realize, okay, we need to reinvent some of our systems, the people who manage these systems when it was 150 people need to rethink how they're managing it. And so I think Connor and max, our CEO and president just recognized, you know, there's lots of things that we want to tackle that at the scale we're getting to, we just can't do ourselves anymore.

So I love that idea. I know you had someone on your podcast a few episodes ago. Episodes ago, talking about chief of staff as [00:08:00] a force multiplier. And so that's really how we view it at Lessonly is how can I extend max and Connor and the whole rest of the executive team who are so busy running their various departments, having someone with some excess capacity to jump in on these cross-functional projects while we're scaling, just we think is going to be a huge win.

So we're excited about it.

Brooks Busch: [00:08:19] Yeah. Yeah. And, and the episode you're referring to, because it stands out. It's one that I think I've referenced multiple times with Garr who's the chief of staff over at Rheaply being that force multiplier for the leadership team and helping them continue to have a level of impact throughout the business is so critical at these growth junctures.

As these companies continue to scale, even pressing into that a little bit further been obviously you're still pressing into the role and you're really feeling what it's going to, what it's going to evolve into, but. From that perspective of being an extension of your CEO, being an extension of leadership.

How are you starting to think about building [00:09:00] those relationships or even building that, that working cadence? Obviously it helps that you have that background, but what are some of the things that are top of mind for you stepping into the

Ben Battaglia: [00:09:09] yeah, one thing that was a priority to me as I entered the role was I designed a listening tour for myself. And really what that meant was I was going to meet with 30 or 40 different people around the org to hear what's happening. And I really wanted to design kind of a mixed bag there, people where I was reconnecting, who I had years of relationship with, but I hadn't heard what was going on in the business in six months, brand new people to the business so I can hear what's it like to join from somewhere else?

And you've been here a month. How does it feel? And pushing outside of disciplines I was comfortable with. So really lived in the marketing and sales world had a lot of relationships there. How can I push outside that to learn? Go deep into what's happening in CX and product and services and try to figure out exactly how this org really works in a way that I didn't [00:10:00] dive into.

So the listening tour has been really essential for me because not only are there things that I'm getting handed by the executive team that are part of my portfolio, but now I'm bringing something to the table, to the executive team. They're very cognizant that as the organization grows, it can feel kind of scary to approach your executive team member.

They're not scary people by any means. I think less than he does a phenomenal job of creating psychological safety, but it can feel freaky to go to your VP or your CEO and give candid feedback. And so I think I'm at a unique spot relationally where I can really engage with people who are on the front lines of the business and see that information when appropriate back to the executive team.

So it kind of become a connective tissue there to help make sure that information is flowing from the front lines back to the executive team. Yeah. And,

Brooks Busch: [00:10:47] you know, it seems counterintuitive for someone stepping into that chief of staff role, because there's so much going on so many projects that you could just run with right.

From the onset, but almost instead [00:11:00] of just jumping in and sprinting. Taking a step back and being super intentional about just understanding what's going on. Steph Shaw, chief of staff at Osseo referenced it. Look, you start slow now so that you can go fast later. And that listening to her, sitting down with folks, hearing what's going on, just getting visibility into what's working across the business and to your point, serving as connective tissue between leadership and every employee throughout the organization, and maybe starting to bridge.

Some of the miscommunication or even just things that slipped through the cracks helps in that effort. So that listening to her, being intentional about that, I'm guessing is something where. It's been a lot of just patients, a lot of learning, but also something that's probably going to pay dividends in the long run.


Ben Battaglia: [00:11:47] Slow is smooth and smooth is fast. That's the phrase I've heard. So like, if we go slow, it's going to get smoother. And that, those relationships that I'm building, not only am I learning a lot, but it's just good relationships so that when. [00:12:00] Something comes up three weeks from now. And I need someone to help me out on the product team.

Like I am building relationships with people so that we can jump into projects right away. So I think keeping those relationships fresh is a big part of this. One thing we've talked about before is just my portfolio and the portfolio of a chief of staff varies from organization to organization. Right.

But one thing I love about the role we're designing at Lessonly is. It balances relational and operational. There are elements that are really about people and nurturing our culture. And how can I be a part of contributing to Lessonly relationally, but also, you know, kind of the classic ops problems that a chief of staff faces too.

And so I think bringing both those to the table is a really phenomenal opportunity for chiefs of staff.

Brooks Busch: [00:12:46] That's something where. I'm even curious, like going into it, how you're thinking of finding that balance, because to your point, there has to be such a level of trust with every employee, everyone that you're going to meet with, where [00:13:00] they don't maybe feel as though the information they're providing is going to be used against them, or it's any way negative.

Right? It's. Giving you information to help remove barriers, to help press into growth opportunities. While at the same time also saying, look, these are the things we have to execute on. So it's finding that right balance as you think about finding the relational and the operational. And how that's going to be built into the role.

What are the things that you're being super intentional about.

Ben Battaglia: [00:13:26] Yeah. You know, it's interesting. I think that a chief of staff who has been a people manager before is, uh, is a unique thing. That's not always true. Oftentimes it may be kind of a step into a management or a leadership role. But I think coming in as someone who was a frontline director, managing people, gave me a perspective about.

Priorities that really matter. So like building relationships and serving people and helping empower them to do their best work. And how can I create trust that [00:14:00] helps you? I don't know. I think, I think that's a unique thing that I'm bringing to the relational aspect of this that maybe not all chiefs of staff have had that training or that experience before to see it through the eyes of I'm a frontline director who's trying to invest in their eye sees, or who's trying to hit a goal.

And so I think I bring some empathetic connection there that. It makes for a different posture as the chief of staff.

Brooks Busch: [00:14:23] Absolutely. It, it, the empathetic part of that a hundred percent stands out of you've been in that position of managing folks, understanding how to connect with them on that level, where you're growing them.

You're pressing forward on those, those goals that you have while at the same time, understanding, Hey, we got it. We got to make sure we're focusing on your own professional development.

Ben Battaglia: [00:14:44] And just doubling down there. Like, I think lots of chiefs of staff that I've talked to get in the groove of like ops projects.

Like I have a project, let's see, you asked me to do it. I need to do this. And they lose out on, it becomes transactional then with the rest of the organization, like, Hey, can you send me this? Thing. [00:15:00] Hey, I need this from you. And if you're not intentionally making relational deposits, it's going to get real old, real fast.

It's going to be hard for you to be effective with all the people you're working with. And so you need those relational empathetic moments in order to make the operational things happen. Yeah.

Brooks Busch: [00:15:15] I love, I love that concept or that thought process of relational deposits being, look, we're trying to build trust equity here.

This is, this is all of us collectively working towards the same goals versus. Me just asking you for these two dues that help play into this operational checklist that I have to get done within my portfolio of projects. So pressing it on that past experience, the management aspect, again came from the marketing perspective.

We've seen strategy and ops leaders come from all different backgrounds. I'd say marketing is probably a bit of an atypical one, not a, not a ton of strategy and ops leaders go through the marketing ranks to then. Maybe the role of chief of staff or COO. So I'm just curious from your perspective, what [00:16:00] unique lens or perspective you have coming from marketing?

Into that chief of staff role that otherwise someone might not have when thinking about a business or thinking about how that role is successful.

Ben Battaglia: [00:16:11] Yeah, for sure. When I think about the role of marketing, I think of two things coming together, story and science. Uh, and when you think of those in the marketing world, you know, maybe story is a little more of the brand side and science is more of the demand gen side.

And so having experience in both of those things, I think makes me a really interesting and unique chief of staff. And it's a great background for chiefs of staff across. Lots of different org. So think about the science part of that. It's a comfort with numbers and a willingness to dive in. You're you're not just like, Hey, let's write copy, but you're willing to dive into like layers of Salesforce and Excel spreadsheets to find an answer.

And so that comfort with. Data and ops flows and marketing ops and Salesforce, I think all [00:17:00] that presents like a great, healthy, analytical background to do this role. And then you think of the story piece. And when I think of story, I think brand, and I think experienced marketers are really experienced creators.

And as a chief of staff, that's what I want to contribute to at Lessonly. So if I'm going to run our all company meeting at the end of August, I'm going to kind of be the point person for that. I am an experienced designer. That's helping the entire company have a better experience. If I'm helping craft, how we do objectives in a late, for example, I am an experienced designer where I'm thinking, how can I make sure everyone involved in this has the best experience and we get the results we want on the other end.

And so. That, that really is the BA the backbone of marketing. And I think it pretty naturally plays in to the chief of staff world as well, too. Yeah,

Brooks Busch: [00:17:47] I would agree. I think that's that's spot on and you even touched on it. It ties into even how your company just goes about setting goals and communicating those goals.

Communicating this is what the long-term vision is that we're [00:18:00] setting out to achieve as a company. And here's how we get there. Here, here is how everyone. Plays a part in driving towards those objectives that we're, we're setting out or laying out as a leadership team for the company. Obviously you have past experience with Leslie and even going through this annual planning process, the seat that you filled formerly was probably a little bit different, different visibility, different access, the seat that you're going to play going forward, but.

Even for you all, how does that, that planning process work? What does that look like? How do you make sure that to your point earlier, you're aligning everyone through the organization towards that common goal.

Ben Battaglia: [00:18:37] Sure. So we use a modified version of OKR so that what we just call Lessonly objectives, very similar to the idea of cascading.

OKR is the executive team picks between three and five key priorities that are most important for the business this year. And then those cascade down to department level KPIs. And [00:19:00] then. At one point, we just had department level, but now as the organization grows, it's kind of like sub units within departments.

So it's no longer just, you know, the services org, but each team on the services org has their own. And then those cascade down below that to personal objectives. So exact team. Business department, business unit and then individual objectives. And that's how we think about kind of setting up alignment across the org.

And then the exec team reviews. Each department's responsible for reviewing and update their objectives. And then the exec team every other week checks in on company objectives and anywhere they need to dig in and objectives below that.

Brooks Busch: [00:19:37] So, and one other element, and this is probably just because. Again, the closeness that we have to Lessonly and Indianapolis here.

But one of the things that always stands out for you all is kind of the, I won't call it a rallying cry, but kind of the momentum that you all create in things like town halls and your all company or all [00:20:00] hands meetings. Making sure that you're all focused on a very concise, direct, this is what we are trying to do.

We are trying to, to have, do better work. Right. That, that, that raised that mantra. What is it that you think makes Lessonly so special when it comes to making sure everyone in the business is around align around. That common direction.

Ben Battaglia: [00:20:22] I think that it starts with values alignment, and I know values are really important.

Every organization says that values matter, but I think we've put extra investment into being crystal clear about what our values are and then highlighting when they're working and doing more of them. So. One phrase we like to talk about as managers at Lessonly and his leadership is clear as kind and oftentimes values may be put on the website or put somewhere on a wall, but we don't often really get clear about what.

Those values look like. And so that's a [00:21:00] really intentional part of our onboarding process. We, it's a really intentional part of our manager training process. Our CEO spent about a year on and off writing a book that really clarifies each of our company values. And so if you all want to read it, please do better work.

It's on. Amazon would love for you to check it out and send me your feedback. And of course Lessonly as well. We put it in our software so that people review it when they do onboarding. So over and over again, we really hit on, Hey, these are the seven things we really care about. Here's really tactical what they look like and let's circle back on them over and over and over again, because that's how we really, they start to sink in and become part of our culture.

So I think that values alignment and repetition over and over again is how they've, they've really become aligned to the org. And, you know, candidly, I think that's something we're thinking about is as we double the size of the business this year, or close to double it, you know, how do we make sure that we continue to.

Repeat because suddenly 50% of the people who worked here, haven't heard this 14 [00:22:00] times before. So that's just something I want to be especially intentional about is continuing to make sure we model and live out and talk about those values over and over and over again.

Brooks Busch: [00:22:09] It’s funny how repetition or just a rhythm and a cadence to doing things over and over again in the same way.

And that consistent way, how that has an impact on the entire organization. Even the mindset of. Look, this is how we do things. This is, this is what it should look like. And obviously we can evolve these things and grow, but there's not the ambiguity of folks feeling disconnected or that they're left in the darker and unknown, which is obviously something that's important too.

I think the overall mentality within a company. So Ben you've stepped into this chief of staff role that obviously is going to evolve. It's going to change. But if you think about. Even early on what success is going to look like in that 30 days, 90 days. What are the main things that you really want to make sure that you lay a strong foundation for, [00:23:00] as you go forward here as a chief of staff?

Ben Battaglia: [00:23:02] You know, I’ll bucket those again, into relational and operational relational is have I built relationships with a healthy trust based relationships with the people I need to, to thrive.

So for me, that's primarily right off the bat. Kind of like our director and head of plus levels. So director had a VP, all those are people where I'm going to be knocking on their door regularly to work together. And so have I connected with all the new people in this roles? Have I reconnected to the old people?

Have I learned exactly what's changed since I've been here last. So trust building is the relational side, operational. Is I think just proving that I can deliver when handed off something, you know, cross-functional projects are complicated for a reason because they're not necessarily owned by any one person.

And so I think proving to the executive team and to max and Connor again, or their CEO and president that when they hand off something it's going to get done timely and well. [00:24:00] Feels essential for my thirst 30 days. And then 90 I'm really thinking about not just how do I execute on the things that have been handed to me, but what am I bringing to the table?

I think by 90 days, I should really be basically bringing my own projects to the table more so than being handed projects by them. So if I'm doing a good job listening, if I'm doing a good job building relationships, if I'm tied into. Major systems. I'm going to quickly be able to say, Hey, here's the next thing I think I should be working on.

So I hope that switched from leadership directed work to self-directed work or, or kind of bottoms up work will take place over the next 60 days.

Brooks Busch: [00:24:38] Yeah, I love that distinction because I think so often, and it's maybe just a, something to expect stepping into the role. If there is an opening for chief of staff or strategy and ops leaders, usually that means that there's work to be handed to that individual.

Right? There's there's ideas that the leadership team has had marinading for awhile, that they need someone to step in and, and execute on. There's [00:25:00] just there's things that can be handed to them. However, it seems like the best strategy and ops leaders. Slowly start to transition from being handed those projects, to helping the business, see around corners and uncover the opportunities that.

Now all of a sudden, either they are running with, or they're, they're helping to navigate where it needs to be owned throughout the business. But it's that idea of being proactive and helping the business unlock those growth channels versus just reactive of here are projects that need to be done. Like we need to figure out pricing.

Cool. I can I'll work on that, but over time it's maybe uncovering, Hey, we've got a real opportunity. If we build out this pricing structure within the company.

Ben Battaglia: [00:25:41] Yeah, absolutely. I think if I want, or any chief of staff, really anyone in any, any position wants to wants a place at the table being reactive and just kind of quote unquote following orders is never going to be the way, you know, you could be a good foot soldier, but you're probably not going to.

Like immediately level up and be thought of [00:26:00] as, Hey, this person is a peer who is totally competent to be an executive leader at this company when we have our next opening or that I would refer to another opening. So for the sake of the org, it's better if I'm thinking proactively and moving that way.

And for my own career growth, it's better. If I'm proactively saying how can I contribute to the company in a unique way and bring that to the table.

Brooks Busch: [00:26:20] Yeah, and maybe we use this as the way to wrap it up. You didn't set out to end up in strategy and ops, but obviously. Your career and the opportunities that you've had, you went and stepped into those opportunities, took those on.

If you were giving advice to someone early on in their career, whether they knew right now, they want to end up in strategy and ops or not. What career advice would you give to someone that ultimately you've been thinking about as you stepped into these new roles?

Ben Battaglia: [00:26:48] Yeah, I think not being afraid to go wide or look for ways you can contribute in ways that are not necessarily in your current lane.

So [00:27:00] have the courage to see opportunities within the business and volunteer for them. And I think some of those things are what led me to where I am today. So when I was with young life, it was saying, Hey, I see this opportunity for marketing. Can I jump in and contribute for this on the side? Can I start their corporate podcast on the side?

With Lessonly it was, Hey max, can I help you write your book? Or what do you think about a chief of staff? And even though the answer was not yet, it ended up paying off a few years later. So I think looking for ways to expand your skillset, that might not be within your job today and saying, Hey, I want to jump onto this additional project and having the emotional courage to put yourself out there to ask for those things, I think is part of what.

Set me up so well for this role or what position me in people's minds as, Hey, he's not just the marketing guy who does his job in marketing. He's interested in contributing to the business in a wider way. So that would be my advice is don't just go deep in your role. That's great. And you [00:28:00] need domain experience to continue to grow, but look for opportunities to go wider, to try something you haven't tried before to put yourself out there for a new opportunity.

And I think that's going to set you up well, In the future and differentiate you from anyone else who's done your role.

Brooks Busch: [00:28:15] I would totally agree with that. It also just helps help someone understand and process. What are the things that I, I do want to press into as well as this thing that I don't want to press into.

I feel like so often folks get stuck in this career track where they just think, okay, I got to go up the sales ladder of a BDR to an AE, to a sales manager, to a director. And you kind of get into that 10 years in and you're like, did I really even want to end up in sales? Will the question becomes, did you provide yourself with the opportunities to flex into other areas of the business?

And just get an understanding of, were you interested in have a love for product that you never really explored to that extent? So love that, that advice Ben.

Ben Battaglia: [00:28:55] Yeah, I'll follow up there. I heard yesterday a quote was shared by Lindsay Tjepkema. [00:29:00] She's the CEO of Casted, but she said. Something like everything you ever wanted is on the other side of fear.

And I love that idea because so often it's like, Hey, here's what I'm good at. I'm going to keep doing more of that. But sometimes we need to jump in the things that scare us a little, or that we're less comfortable with to build that muscle and then be able to really grow and thrive. So I'm in for it.

Brooks Busch: [00:29:23] Thank you so much for taking the time, giving us a glimpse into. You stepping in the chief of staff role, what the evaluation process looked like, obviously, best of luck here, getting, getting your feet under you.

Ben Battaglia: [00:29:33] Thanks so much. I appreciate it. Brooks. Thanks for having me on. 

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